Dont know if they have caught up with this one yet in Greece?
The job was the job and the pay was the pay, take it or leave it - obviously depending on what sort of job you are looking for.
Message posted by EileenSun on 14 May 2010 at 5:09pm - IP Logged
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Hi LittleH, if you are looking for seasonal bar work or waitressing the wages are very poor i.e. 800 euro per month (and that is classed as good) it is most often 10 hours a day 7 days a week. Prob not right.. but I am afraid that is how it is.
Message posted by Vaughan on 14 May 2010 at 6:38pm - IP Logged
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But you would have to 100 per cent legally working to receive this. If they pay you the minimum wage then they must pay you your IKA payments. If you work seasonally it takes two full seasons of working to benefit from unemployment benefit.
I will probably be told I'm wrong but my accountant has told me the minimum wage is aropund 36 Euro's per day for a 40 hour week. If you do over this you are entitled to overtime..
It's a call weather you want to be legal and potentially earn less in the short term.. Remember many seasonal companies won't want to make you legal
Kind regards
Message posted by Bill on 14 May 2010 at 9:04pm - IP Logged
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According to the Federation of European Employers, Greece's minimum wage as at 1.4.2009 for an adult (aged 23 or over) working full time 40 hour week was 740€ per month. However, the caveats to this figure are that:
a)White-collar workers only. Workers normally entitled to 14 monthly payments per year (Christmas, Easter and vacation payments are included).
b)Different rates apply to blue and white collar workers and vary by length of service and marital status.
This works out at 4.98€ gross per hour.
Message posted by poulades on 14 May 2010 at 9:16pm - IP Logged
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OK thanks for that.. I guess I was out by about 4 euro's a day.. sometimes it depends on the job but you can see why most don't go legal. It costs the employer nearly double the wage in insurance payments to employ legally.
Message posted by C4owner on 14 May 2010 at 9:46pm - IP Logged
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Quote: Originally posted by poulades on 14 May 2010
OK thanks for that.. I guess I was out by about 4 euro's a day.. sometimes it depends on the job but you can see why most don't go legal. It costs the employer nearly double the wage in insurance payments to employ legally.
Which is one of the reasons the economy in Greece is in such a mess
I would imagine that there will be a crackdown this season (as there was in Spain some years ago) on 'illegals' and employers in order to raise tax revenues.
Looking at other threads the clampdown has started already in other areas such as parking, non Greek registered cars etc. etc.
What with the tax rises due in July it looks like it's going to be an interesting year for anyone running a business in Greece.
Message posted by Bill on 14 May 2010 at 9:49pm - IP Logged
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Hi Poulades. I reckon your accountant gave you accurate information, but based on 2008 figures, when (if the data I've found is correct) the minimum daily wage for a 40 hour week was just a few cents under 36€.
Message posted by poulades on 14 May 2010 at 10:09pm - IP Logged
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Most of the bars run by Greeks or English will NOT pay IKA, you are lucky if you get 30euros a 8hour shift and they are still getting away with it!!!
Companies employing workers on the Marina also are now only paying a pitance for hardworking people on a daily basis.
Boat owners have been hit with a new tax which apparently is being back dated from 2009.
I know of 2 who have been given a bill for over 10.000euro...do you think these people will pay? I think not.
Very soon there will be even less boats mooring in the marina as there are many cheaper alternatives with better facilities not far away.
Message posted by Eleni k on 15 May 2010 at 10:30am - IP Logged
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Planthead-it depends on what type of bar that you work in.
My uncle has a bar on another Greek island and he pays his staff 70Euro a shift, they also make about the same in tips and they have IKA.
However this is a large, busy cocktail bar that makes enough to be able to do this.
It is extremely hard for a small business that does not have a large turnover to
employ someone for even 1000€ a month especially when on top of that they have to pay around 350 a month for insurance.
Message posted by tiger79 on 15 May 2010 at 9:27pm - IP Logged
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Quote:
Boat owners have been hit with a new tax which apparently is being back dated from 2009.
I know of 2 who have been given a bill for over 10.000euro...do you think these people will pay? I think not.
Very soon there will be even less boats mooring in the marina as there are many cheaper alternatives with better facilities not far away.
I think this tax only applies to Greek tax payers, and only for boats longer than 10m (power) or 15m (sail). It's part of the measures designed to capture "wealth tax" from Greeks who have, by and large, not properly declared their income.
Message posted by littleh on 15 May 2010 at 9:52pm - IP Logged
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The tax is not only for Greek tax payers it is for any boat over 12.5 metres and is a greek new system, most people wont pay this Greek Sea Tax they will just leave.
As for the minimum wage thank you for all the replies but I will be being paid with ika, but just changing my job, Im one of the lucky ones my mom was here ten years and in that time she never got ika and even after giving 100 % loyallty to these jobs, nothing was ever returned, so has now had to leave Greece. But as the saying goes "what goes around comes around" for sure if these buisnesses are still not paying ika this year will bite them hard... I hope.
Message posted by janmanessi on 16 May 2010 at 1:34am - IP Logged
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I know it is wrong to underpay, not pay IKA etc. but these are all economy measures...and there have been a number of posts enquiring anxiously about prices for food and drink, and hopes that they will not go up have quite naturally been expressed...but how do you balance it all? On one hand you pillory places for charging more, and on the other hand condemn them for not paying out more to their staff! In the good times I can understand but few bar owners now do more than scrape a living- where is all the extra money to come from if not from raising prices?
Message posted by planthead on 16 May 2010 at 3:03am - IP Logged
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Janmanessi...Underpaying and not paying IKA are NOT economy measures!!! It has been going on for years.
Its all very well coming on holiday and not wanting prices to rise but if petrol has gone up so will prices as delivery charges are more.
But there is no excuse for the way the majority of staff are treated...made to work illegaly.
Also if anyone says you should complain if this happens to you, then please tell me to whom?
You have probably never been in this awful position (luckily for you)
Message posted by doug on 16 May 2010 at 9:42am - IP Logged
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A Greek friend of mine was offered a job last week in a restaurant in Corfu and he was told the wage of 35euros per 12 hour day with no day off and no IKA.
Message posted by janmanessi on 16 May 2010 at 10:35am - IP Logged
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planthead- agree in the past, but no good looking at things that happened historically, I was meaning now, in the current financial climate.
Incidentally I am NOT condoning the IKa evasion etc. just understanding why, in many cases, it happens
And yes, I worked for a very reputable UK tour company for 10 years who refused to pay any National Insurance or IKA- at that time Greece was not in the EU so it was not a legal obligation. When I said that as full time employees, albeit seasonal, we should be covered in one country or the other, I was told that if I wanted that I should look for a job elsewhere...end of conversation
Message posted by Susanna on 16 May 2010 at 12:39pm - IP Logged
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This is a huge topic and needs to be looked at from both sides. Those of us that have been living in Greece for years have experienced both sides of this problem. We all knew of the UK tour operators which didn't pay either IKA or National Insurance in the UK. They simply said "take it or leave it", presumably in the interests of keeping the cost of holidays down.
From the other point of view, I can almost guarantee that any small business making money in Corfu today is doing so a) because they own the premises and don't have to pay rent and b) because they work the business themselves with family members (no IKA required) from morning till night 7 days a week.
Shop-keepers in Athens are no better off. The shops there are open from 9a.m. to 9p.m. and beyond. Many shops are run by one person working six days a week without a break in order to cover their expenses. All this BEFORE the current crisis.
It's not that the owners of businesses are raking it in and refusing to pay their staff a decent wage and IKA, it's that they simply cannot afford to do the "right" thing. You can't even argue that they should therefore close their business - to do what?
A glimmer of hope comes from the fact that rents are being lowered in Corfu as more and more businesses are forced to close their doors, but it is only fair to look at this problem from both sides and recognize the reasons why certain "wrongs" are perpetuated.
Obviously this is a general picture. There are many unpleasant people out there who do take advantage of their employees - maybe the crisis will weed them out.
Message posted by tiger79 on 16 May 2010 at 2:46pm - IP Logged
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Quote: Originally posted by littleh on 15 May 2010
The tax is not only for Greek tax payers it is for any boat over 12.5 metres and is a greek new system, most people wont pay this Greek Sea Tax they will just leave.
Whilst there's confusion over the new taxes, there's no confusion over the boat sizes involved. The new law (3790/2009 143A of August 2009) proposed 2 taxes, applying to power boats bigger than 10m, and sailboats bigger than 15m. One tax (the "Part 3" tax) is a "one-off" retrospective tax, which apparently is targetted at Greek nationals, and which some port authorities are now starting to collect. The second tax proposed (the "Part 2" tax) is an annual charge, but is not yet being collected, and may only apply to Greek-flagged boats and/or boats owned by Greek nationals. As an indication, the annual tax for a 15m sailboat would be 3000 euros, but I'd have to add that a 15m sailboat is a pretty big boat, and many boats in Greek waters are smaller than this and wouldn't be taxed at all.
Message posted by secondhome on 16 May 2010 at 4:28pm - IP Logged
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secondhome
Yes that sounds exactly right doug, and also no respect!!
A Greek friend of mine was offered a job last week in a restaurant in Corfu and he was told the wage of 35euros per 12 hour day with no day off and no IKA.
Message posted by janmanessi on 16 May 2010 at 4:40pm - IP Logged
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To me its all about what is legal - how are you going to run your business Jan? Where do you draw the line once you start ignoring the law...what is the point of blaming the bloated rich and politicians who take huge bribes if you just do the same on a smaller scale?
But my question stands - is it legal?
Message posted by poulades on 16 May 2010 at 10:27pm - IP Logged
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Oh for christs sake. This site can be pedantic.. We all have the best interests of Corfu and Greece as our main concern. There is unfortunately a population on our island who through lack of interest, lack of Greek or pure ignorance or all three rarely take the time to get to the facts who merely repeat hear say or their own take on what goes on.
This is aimed at noone in particular but soem of the posts not just on this thread but others as well really mystify me.
On a seperate note. If you took a job in the UK and the employer refused to pay your tax and national insurance would it be legal??
It's the same thing! No it's not legal but openly accepted!
Message posted by J&L on 16 May 2010 at 10:53pm - IP Logged
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My point is that there are those who do pay tax and insurance - and therefore are disadvantaged themselves - but they help their employees and they help Greece. Those are the ones who we should support.
And I am really tired of people parrotting "this is Greece" as if that was an excuse for illegal/immoral behaviour. This isn't about social or cultural difference, it is about some peoples morality and some peoples livelihood. It might be what happens - but I want to choose to go to businesses where it doesnt happen.
Message posted by NIGEL on 16 May 2010 at 10:58pm - IP Logged
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Quote: Originally posted by J&L on 16 May 2010
My point is that there are those who do pay tax and insurance - and therefore are disadvantaged themselves - but they help their employees and they help Greece. Those are the ones who we should support.
And i am really tired of people parrotting "this is Greece" as if that was an excuse for illegal/immoral behaviour. This isn't about social or cultural difference, it is about some peoples morality and some peoples livelihood. It might be what happens - but i want to choose to go to businesses where it doesnt happen.
Excellent reply to someone who sounds peed off for some reason, dont know why??
Message posted by poulades on 16 May 2010 at 11:31pm - IP Logged
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No certainly not peed off. There is certainly an idea of that this is Greece so there fore this how it should be.
This is wrong. Just because it openly accepted certainly doesn't make it right This practice is also fuelled by the fact that there is a large section of the community that live in Greece illegally let alone work illegally. Also the fact that there is large transient community who do not want to be in the official system..
Now this system suited all those involved whilst Greece was cheaper. Now that the cost of living has gone up but largely wages have stayed the same, people are questioning whether they should be part of the official system.
It was largely the employees who chose the so called illegal route as well and some still do as they don't want to decalre an income when they are living by large off their means in England.
Although not Greek I have been brought up in Corfu and our family business is probably one the most well known and successful "foreign" companies on the island.
We have always been in the system and have had the benefits of it but also been stitched up by jealous people for thier own gain!
My point about pedantic comments is not aimed at just this thread but there is a pattern of people point scoring without addressing the facts.
I have seen many people leave the site for this reason.
I for one will watch this thread then do the same.
Kalo sas kalokairi
Message posted by tiger79 on 16 May 2010 at 11:53pm - IP Logged
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Hang on! We're talking about Greece - probably one of the most corrupt members of the EU - and one which for years has embraced tax evasion as a national pastime. It's sad that "people are questioning whether they should be part of the official system", but the official system involves people paying tax, as is the norm in civilised countries. It might have escaped your notice, but just recently, the rest of us in the EU have been saddled with enormous debt liabilities (paid for out of the taxes which we honest citizens have to pay) in order to bail out the corrupt citizens of Greece. It's not been well-received here, and it's not over yet. Unless Greeks rapidly change their views, your country will be thrown to the global economic dogs, and you'll achieve third-world poverty levels overnight.
Message posted by poulades on 17 May 2010 at 12:16am - IP Logged
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Again you are exactly right in your observations. Because of the so called attitude that we wil pay tax when we chose we are in this situation. But this is why so many so called Grecophiles came to the place in the first place.
It makes it very very hard for someone to be above board when they see others playing or totally disregarding the system..
The Greek government will crack down on this and hard times are ahead because fundamentally they are no longer in control.
With respect to the above post there is not one part I disagree with
Message posted by poulades on 17 May 2010 at 12:22am - IP Logged
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Re reading the posts like I say I totally agree with you. Maybe you think I come from the wrong view but I don't!! My point on questioning whether people chose to be part of the system is exacly that!! THEY CHOSE because they have been able to! This is wrong!
You can look at a lot of the main so called professionals.. Drs lawyers etc etc who drive around in flash cars and declare an official income of 12000 a year! How can a country survive!?
Message posted by NIGEL on 17 May 2010 at 12:38am - IP Logged
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If I get my business up and running I want it to be completely transparent and legal, but I shall probably go mad trying to fight my way through all the bureaucracy.
Message posted by poulades on 17 May 2010 at 1:32am - IP Logged
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Of course you will jan.. and that is the way forward. Those of us who have lived and made a life here for so long know that is what is necessary. I wish you all the luck I know you'll need it!!
Message posted by poulades on 17 May 2010 at 1:36am - IP Logged
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Great thread ! I, like Poulades, had a business here, I couldn't compete with a nation of people who draw IKA in winter months while claiming to be qualified builders. Taking the jobs that LEGAL companies fail to get because of cost! On this or another site recently, somebody asked why there is no PAYE system in Greece. I don't know the answer so didn't post, but it seems to me that to be employed in Greece, you should need a Tax/IKA/Nat Ins Number and the employer is obliged by law to advise the authorities of any wages paid and Tax deducted at source. Sounds simple,,,,, it works in the UK. We were over there on holiday recently, Mrs Mozzy did about 3 days for a recruitment agency and paid Emergency Tax and NI at source. We did get a nasty letter from the Inland Revenue asking her what she was playing at "Where do you live, why are you there, what made you leave the UK" etc etc but we replied with a request for a rebate of tax paid this year No reply so far ?? YES it will cost money to set a PAYE system up in Greece but the alternative is what we see now. Was that a rant ? ooops MM
Message posted by sarah Acharavi on 17 May 2010 at 3:10pm - IP Logged
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NIGEL
Yes, I saw this a few days ago... all I can say is, about ... time!!! and this is only the beginning. IF they carry on like this, should have that deficit paid off in no time!!
...let the fun begin!!!....
Message posted by NIGEL on 17 May 2010 at 3:16pm - IP Logged
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Very interesting Sarah. As you say, close to home. At last it seems as if the people who have really been tax dodging are being caught. Greece won't recognize itself after a few years of this!
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