I think things we already knew, or know what goes on, but on the other hand we also know people work hard for a pittance of a wage, and do struggle I feel sorry for.
Message posted by Jackie F on 07 November 2011 at 11:15pm - IP Logged
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Oaf, No its not worth watching (my opinion only). I dont wish to comment on the content of this programme except to say that my heart sank lower and lower as I watched it.
With all my love and heartfelt good wishes to the good, hardworking people of Greece, who have enriched my life.
Jackie
Message posted by windmill on 07 November 2011 at 11:39pm - IP Logged
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Having eventually found it between Location, Location and Come Dine with Me, it won't play. I can just imagine the seriousness and validity of this programme...(not) so, to keep my blood pressure low, I think I shall not bother.
Message posted by Viv D on 08 November 2011 at 7:55am - IP Logged
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On the other side of journalism. My Husband was listening to Radio 4 where John Humphreys author of Blue Skies and Black Olives spent all last week with Greek families in Athens and came across with what they are going through at the moment.
Viv
Message posted by suffolk-steve on 08 November 2011 at 8:01am - IP Logged
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It's a pity they never interviewed my friend, who has not been paid for nearly 2 weeks, because the bar where she works has no customers, and not taken money for her to get paid. Interview people like this next time perhaps.
Message posted by razaker on 08 November 2011 at 8:45am - IP Logged
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Just watched it after seeing this post, I think the reporter was very condesending, & for hard working Greek folk dont need this kind of reporting. To make as though every one has been on the take or fiddling there ex`s & tax is laughable too, the truth is the very people the Greek folk put there trust in have massively let them down & should stand accountable for, god we should know we have a shower in charge in England making the average worker pay for the fat cat bankers greed & mistakes. Oops didnt mean to get political.
Message posted by trisa on 08 November 2011 at 9:21am - IP Logged
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Quote: Originally posted by razaker on 08 November 2011
Just watched it after seeing this post, I think the reporter was very condesending, & for hard working Greek folk dont need this kind of reporting. To make as though every one has been on the take or fiddling there ex`s & tax is laughable too, the truth is the very people the Greek folk put there trust in have massively let them down & should stand accountable for, god we should no we have a shower in charge in England making the average worker pay for the fat cat bankers greed & mistakes. Oops didnt mean to get political.
Too right! I am getting increasingly irritable about the way Greece and her people are being so totally humiliated. I am also fed up with people moaning about having to bail out 'the Greeks.'
A good point was made by Michael Portillo the other day..
<a rel="nofollow" href= "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FifUoVsA1sA">A very good point</a>
Trisa
Message posted by steevw on 08 November 2011 at 9:39am - IP Logged
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It was a ridiculous programme. Any valid points were passed over by the 'Daily Star' mentality of it. Just HOW many times did each person have to tell someone their 'Greek Week Tale'? Repetition is a strong persuasive tool but this presumed the viewers had no brain. What I most objected to was the insinuation that every Greek person was corrupt, handing out bribes left right and centre on a daily basis.
The only good thing was that the Surgeon and his wife gave their huge weekly "gain" to charity.
Rubbish, but then most telly is!
Jacquie
Message posted by trisa on 08 November 2011 at 10:23am - IP Logged
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I also watched it and yes it was far to 'tabloid' journalism in style which detracted from some of the more relevant points (which they also covered) as to why Greece has ended up in the position it now finds itself in
If you haven't seen the programme try and watch it, but filter out the 3 silly examples given and it does give a reasoned and logical explanation of the background to the current financial position.
How it will ever be resolved though, by the same politicians who actually created the problems, is something no one seems to have a real answer to.
Message posted by heathermac on 08 November 2011 at 11:32am - IP Logged
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Did not see the it on TV but just want to dispel a myth about Brits always paying tax.
People paying for services with cash to save the V.A.T.
Tax inspector paying cash to builder to save V.A.T.
Plumbing, electrical, etc suppliers full on a Saturday morning with tradesmen who work for a company weekdays and work for cash at the weekends from people like you.
Now because of the recession in the UK my friend who has kept his business going is priceing jobs against tradesmen all working for cash and he can't compete. Customers know these people are not registered but don't care they are getting the job done cheaper. I could go on!! So please tax evasion goes on in the UK big time by the normal working person not just big companies.
Message posted by kerkyra on 08 November 2011 at 11:41am - IP Logged
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What an absolutely absurd programme.
They tried their best to give us a view of why Greece is now in trouble and how corruption is widespread; they did this by having bits of the programme injected with experts from various learning institutions.
Sorry didn't work on us, but talking to people in the office this morning who are not totally up to date with the problems faced by the average Greek, they said that's why they are in trouble "everyone's" either tax invading or on the take.....and this is only a few people who watched the programme in my office.
Ok they did have some valid points but it was far more negative towards Greece and her people,maybe done so to make people say exactly the comments which have been talked about in my office this morning.
Andy.
Message posted by dangermouse on 08 November 2011 at 12:59pm - IP Logged
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So many here are saying the programme was rubbish and this thing doesn't happen in Greece. I watched it with a very good Greek friend of mine (who works 70+ hours a week in the summer for a minimum wage) and he kept smiling, laughing and agreeing with everything the programme said. Having lived in Greece myself for MANY years I can assure you that in my experience it certainly DOES happen. We both thought the programme was a very accurate portrayal of the Greek way of doing things. The politicians have 'bought' votes with promises that they knew they could never sustain and the Greek people swallowed it. Problem is that now Greece has joined 'the club' that the they have to fall in line with the rest of us and of course they don't like it. Why SHOULD they retire at 67, 14 years later and on less than half the money that they were promised ? There are many, many hard working Greek people who certainly don't deserve the situation that they find themselves in but there are many more greedy, self centred individuals that have lived by this 'easy ride' system and are now having to face the real world. Please understand that I am not calling the average hard working Greek family but the selfish minority that seem to have most of the power.
Message posted by lindybell on 08 November 2011 at 2:46pm - IP Logged
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I watched the programme, it's plain to see that it was totally balmming the Greek people for the tax evation, polititans make the rules and the euro zone should not have over looked how the Greeks live. If they did there job's properly then Greece wouldn't be in this state. Well I don't blame the people, and I love the Greeks, and would be lost without my Greek holiday's, we should help them.
We have far more corrupt politicians in this country to start with! Our pensions are totally rubbish compared to the ammount of tax's we all pay for, tax on wages, fuel, council tax, on clothes, booze, cigarets, I could go on... We are too taxed in this country. I am a single parent on tax credits, it's a bad system, wages should go up with inflation like they used to in the eightees, I hate having the tax credit top ups, maybe it will catch us up with our pensions. I'm worried about it... I'm not 60 untill 2027!...by then the pension age will have gone up for sure, what to? Who know's??
Message posted by Elliemay on 08 November 2011 at 2:51pm - IP Logged
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Lindy,
The UK pension age has already been changed from 60 for women and 65 for men. I am 56 and won't get my state pension until I am 66, that's if they don't move the goalposts yet again!
Message posted by lindybell on 08 November 2011 at 2:55pm - IP Logged
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Quote: Originally posted by Elliemay on 08 November 2011
Lindy,
The UK pension age has already been changed from 60 for women and 65 for men. I am 56 and won't get my state pension until I am 66, that's if they don't move the goalposts yet again!
Watch this space Elliemay they may just move them again!!! At this rate I will still be working and travelling to work on my motorised scooter!!!
As for the programme!!! Well watched 5 minutes then turned it over, absolute codswallop and sensationalist tripe!
Message posted by SusieM on 08 November 2011 at 3:25pm - IP Logged
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I only watched the tail end of that program and it was AWFUL bordering on big brother and they were there to do one thing slagg off the Greeks. If it had been Panorama with Jeremy Vine then we would have had something to worry about but it was nowhere near in his league of reporting.
Message posted by mousey on 08 November 2011 at 3:54pm - IP Logged
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OK I'm 53 in a few years and my work is hazardous.
I want to retire on 90% of my current pay...who wouldnt eh?
I watched it and laughed. OK maybe the format was a bit pants. But lets think about the content for a moment.
We all love Greece for our own reasons and each have our own Greek friends. But
... at the risk of being shot at dawn; I think it was a factual program, and those of us who have lived in Greece probably related and agreed with more than one item of the reportage.
Anyone who has rented a house in Greece and has been asked to put half the actual rent on the contract and the lawyer agrees to it...
Can any of you tell me hand of heart that what they were saying is not true...?
On the other hand the Greeks could well produce a program on the benefit cheats in the UK and that would make the Greeks laugh at us!
Can anyone offer an plausible non-Euro related alternative as to why the Greek economy is in such a mess?
Message posted by janmanessi on 08 November 2011 at 4:11pm - IP Logged
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I am nearly 58 and I know I will not get my state pension until I am 7 days away from being 64. So yes I will be 63 years 11 months and 24 days of age.
I may throw a party on the 25th day
Viv
Message posted by panv on 08 November 2011 at 5:48pm - IP Logged
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Elliemay they have changed the rules, you will get your pension at 65 as long as your 65 before end of October 2020 unfortunately I am 65 in November 2020 so 66 for me
Message posted by Lavinia on 08 November 2011 at 5:56pm - IP Logged
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I just watched a bit of it on 4od. I am shocked and disappointed that Channel 4 could actually televise such drivel. I think it was malicious journalism bordering on slanderous and scurrilous.
Last night I watched "The Choir" on BBC2. What a different kind of programme. It was the first episode of Gareth forming a new choir drawn from the wives of soldiers on active service in Afghanistan based at Chivenor in North Devon. It was touching, very emotional and also uplifting.
I know which programme I shall be watching next week!
Message posted by Elliemay on 08 November 2011 at 5:58pm - IP Logged
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Hi Pan,
I beg to differ. Using the Directgov site State Pension Age calculator, it is definitely telling me I will be 66 years of age. I will be 65 in December 2019
Mousey and like others know things go on under hand, the little brown envelopes.. and the programme wasn't slating the average working class GREEK person just bringing to light what may and probably goes on.
At least in the Uk the fiddles are legal MP's can claim expences for duck houses, who wouldnt given the chance...if not caught?
Message posted by Dave and Kerry on 08 November 2011 at 6:08pm - IP Logged
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I have just watched it having recorded it last night, one thing that came to mind was what sort of pension was being paid to the people it mentioned prior to joining the euro in terms of money as per the 90% of wage does anyone know? The reason for asking is earlier this year we were in Turkey on our way to Ephesus and the guide told us that retired people there were currently getting 1,000Euro per month but in Turkish Lira and if they were to join the euro they would then get 2,000 euro per month!! Now then is this what happened in Greece? Because if that is the case it seems that there is biased reporting going on.
We all know that there is an element of truth within the programme as to what has and what still goes on in Greece, how many with land and or homes out there paid their money and despite the paperwork showing X euros know full well that the seller pocketed some of the cash in order to avoid tax!
So while there are many honest people in Greece there are also many who given the chance just like here in the UK would take the chance on avoiding paying tax!
Dave.
Message posted by panv on 08 November 2011 at 7:06pm - IP Logged
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Hi Pan,
I had already checked this out before April when I went to Corfu. This is already the current law (see below) but they state that this could change, aargh!!!. Am getting to the point that I feel that in ten years time when I reach the grand old age of 66 (all being well) that they will have probably moved the goalposts again. Beginning to wonder whether we will actually get a State Pension.
"The State Pension age calculator will tell you when you will reach State Pension age under the current law. However, the government is considering how the State Pension age should be changed in the future. This may mean the timetable for increases to 67 and 68 will be revised. The government will bring forward proposals in due course. Any change to the timetable would require the approval of Parliament"
Message posted by panv on 08 November 2011 at 7:16pm - IP Logged
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Its ok
They say use the calculator if you were born after 6 April 60.
This all changed last month read this page
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/SpendingReview/DG_192159
Message posted by Elliemay on 08 November 2011 at 7:21pm - IP Logged
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Hi,
Thanks for the link but it still shows me as getting State Pension at 66. It seems that if you were born after the 6th October 1954 then even with the proposed revision, you will still not get your State Pension until your 66th birthday.
Message posted by Lavinia on 08 November 2011 at 7:23pm - IP Logged
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Dave, my doctors' widow pension has been cut by nearly 30% and my (orthopaedic consultant) late Greek husband never asked for a fakalaki, nor have I ever cheated the tax system as it is not in my nature to be anything but honest.
I would like Channel 4 to come here to film actual Greek families living on the bread-line rather than manufacture scenarios such as the rubbish they televised last night.
It was interesting that no mention was made of government benefits which ordinary Greeks may claim when in difficulties (virtually non-existant).
Shame on you Channel 4.
Message posted by panv on 08 November 2011 at 7:23pm - IP Logged
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These changes will be tabled as an amendment to the Pensions Bill, currently passing through Parliament.
If this amendment is agreed by Parliament the State Pension age will not reach 66 until October 2020. The revised timetable is shown in the second table below.
Message posted by tully on 08 November 2011 at 9:43pm - IP Logged
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I won't receive my pension till I'm 67 as I've always worked, worked and worked, I was hoping to play, play and play before I shuffle of this mortal coil.
As for the programme "Go Greek for the Week" started to watch it, but soon turned over. Yes the system is corrupt, but the average Greek in the villages don't get to "play" the system and life is very hard for them.
Message posted by Elliemay on 08 November 2011 at 9:56pm - IP Logged
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Hi,
Totally off subject I know, but many years ago I planned my retirement income on getting my State Pension at 60, when I was due to retire from the Civil Service. It has only been in the last 5 years or so that they have moved the goalposts. How on earth do the Government expect us 50+ people to exist from 60 years of age to 66 years of age without the promised pension? Words fail me!!!
Message posted by Dave and Kerry on 08 November 2011 at 10:27pm - IP Logged
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Lavinia. I feel that the programme was aimed at those who have been cheating the system for years! The trouble is with TV programmes they tend to tar everyone with the same brush. We all know people on Corfu or in other parts of Greece who are honest and genuine and hard working but good news does not sell newspapers as they say and sadly it is the little people who take the hit on major taxes just as in the UK.
When major companies are allowed to dodge tax as has just happened in the UK and like the Greek shipping magnates people will rightly feel agrieved.
With regard to your pension did it change after Greece joined the Euro ie did it increase? Or did it stay at the same amount as before the Euro.
Message posted by Ray and Gisela on 08 November 2011 at 11:03pm - IP Logged
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Quote: Originally posted by janmanessi on 09 November 2011
Maybe LESK will invite you to his luxury villa so you can watch it in comfort!
I haven't switched on the TV, satellite or Video since arriving. Why would you want to when you can sit outside and enjoy the views or better still get quality reading matter through your kindle (another 'luxury')
Part of wanting to leave the UK was to get away from the endless rubbish they call TV programming and reporting and I'm not in the least surprised that the TV programme didn't behave fairly or represent the 'real' Greeks but you can bet the UK-based TV couch potatos will look at it and think 'what a bunch of thieving baskets'.
If its any interest I participate in a UK business forum and the chat is very commonsense-based and pretty much sums up the situation as it is.. we are all more concerned with the politics of Germany/France than the pitifully small minded programmes you get on TV.
Frankly if you want to know whats going on in the world, the last place you should be looking is the English TV stations. (just an opinion [;D])
Message posted by rocdoc on 09 November 2011 at 10:51am - IP Logged
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Actually Lavinia there was a mention of the very low level of social benefits but only fleetingly. It made no mention of waiting for weeks to be paid. It was sensationalist, where it could have demonstrated the hardships being faced by many ordinary people rather than focussing on system quirks and the unscrupulous minority.
Message posted by mousey on 09 November 2011 at 11:09am - IP Logged
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As sensationalist as it may have been; as poor as the reporting may have been; and however sleep enducing it appears to have been..the facts are that those who chose to operate above the law, operate the fakalaki system, dodge taxes ...dodgy landlords ...dodgy housesales... they have ALL contributed to Greeces current economic climate.
And in addition there ARE those who cheat the Greek pensions system costing the govt more than they can afford.
Fact of the matter someone needs to buy the governemnt a new abbacus so it can get its sums right, stop hiding from the truth and sort the country out.
Lavinia and others here; all law abiding citizens should not feel any guilt or feel accused of such things - you know what you have done in the past and should not feel the finger being pointed at you.
Sadly though, it is the honest hard working Greeks who will have to pay for the corrupt mess caused by the weathly wanting to stay wealthy and thinking they can bribe their way out of anything and everything.
Message posted by windmill on 09 November 2011 at 9:18pm - IP Logged
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"Part of wanting to leave the UK was to get away from the endless rubbish they call TV programming and reporting and I'm not in the least surprised that the TV programme didn't behave fairly or represent the 'real' Greeks but you can bet the UK-based TV couch potatos will look at it and think 'what a bunch of thieving baskets'."
There's a button called the off switch, just press it and problem solved. Don't have to go abroad to get away from it. Yes there is a load of tripe on UK TV, yet so many who live in Corfu still watch UK TV. I'm no couch potato but from my experience abroad, UK TV still far surpasses anything abroad, including Greek TV. I've also got wonderful views but hard to see after dark. Still read books rather than Kindle.
Message posted by SusieM on 10 November 2011 at 2:20pm - IP Logged
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Interestingly one of my daughters told me this morning that Greece is going balistic about this program and saying they are going to take a camera crew down to Cavos/Zanti wherever and film the (average!) British youth on holiday.
Message posted by mousey on 10 November 2011 at 4:04pm - IP Logged
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Quote: Originally posted by SusieM on 10 November 2011
Interestingly one of my daughters told me this morning that Greece is going balistic about this program and saying they are going to take a camera crew down to Cavos/Zanti wherever and film the (average!) British youth on holiday.
It will probably be un broadcast-able apart from on those very late night X Rated channels
Problem though is that they will need to wait until next summer to make it as the season is over
They need to do a 'Go British for a week' to show the Greeks what happens in the UK
Message posted by windmill on 10 November 2011 at 8:40pm - IP Logged
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Finally got to watch the programme. Not impressed at all but the basic facts were correct. So the Greeks are going ballistic about it...why? Perhaps they should be more concerned with more important matters.
Message posted by Gill B on 10 November 2011 at 9:35pm - IP Logged
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Gill B
Just found on the Zante Informer page on Facebook (translated from a Greek website ioniannews.gr). Just for C4owner!!
Go British for a week
With the ship of an ancient continent sinking in the mire of economic downturn it is hypocritical and stupid of the lords to laugh and satirise those below them from their lofty position. It is a sad picture that a society with multiple problems feels that they can smirk at the problems of another through cheap, trashy TV whilst turning a blind eye to their own mess.
And if some people in Britain find it funny to live a week like Greeks through Channel 4’s reality show, I'm sure one of our countrymen would not find it quite so appealing to take part in a similar TV program entitled ‘Go British for a week’.
So let us imagine three Greek families who will experience the reality of unemployment, losing their home, and alcoholism for a week, offering plenty of entertainment for the viewer.
The first Greek family will live amongst impoverished British families and their children will be among the 600,000 that are malnourished today in Old Albion. They will also have the opportunity to live as a hero of their childhood, Oliver Twist.
The second family will be victims of the alcoholism that is eating away the innards of British society, with 25% of adult Britons consuming alcohol at levels that endanger their health.
As for the third family, they will have the experience of surviving under bridges and in parks in the company of thousands more homeless people seeking shelter in even the most unlikely parts of British cities.
The game show is based on the forecast that in 2013 the UK will have approximately 3.1 million children, 2.5 million parents, 4 million adults without children and 2.1 million pensioners living in absolute poverty; a term used in cases where the person’s salary falls below 60% of average income.
According to a report published by the Information Centre of the British National Health Service (NHS), one in three men and one in six women consume enough alcohol to put them at risk of both liver damage and psychological problems like depression.
Finally, Britain has one of the highest rates of homelessness in Europe; it is estimated that 4 in 1,000 people are homeless.
So have fun and ... ‘Go British for a week’
Message posted by windmill on 12 November 2011 at 10:12pm - IP Logged
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Gill B
Thousands of Greeks have lived happily in UK for many years. This country welcomed them long before the EU was formed.As a country, no one more than Uk citizens have supported Greek tourism and mostly that of Corfu. Fed up reading posts from Brits rubbishing their own country. Wonder how many contributors to this site know of our contribution to the birth of modern Greece. My wife and I have visited most parts of Greece for the last 30 years and love the place..but..some of the posts on this site recently are naive to say the least.
Message posted by Gill B on 12 November 2011 at 10:44pm - IP Logged
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Gill B
Hi Windmill,
I did not say my post above was my personal opinion, simply something that was originally on ionionnews.gr written in Greek.
I watched the Channel 4 programme and although, sadly, some of the details were true it did not give a true picture of life for the majority of Greek people I know. We, like you, have travelled extensively in Greece and have many friends who work very hard for very little money and are having a tough time at present.
I think Greece has a tough time ahead and we should support our friends as much as we can.
As for rubbishing the UK, I know we are not perfect either. I'm sure my life on the edge of the Lake District is very different to that experienced by many people in the inner cities.
Message posted by Viv D on 13 November 2011 at 9:55am - IP Logged
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I think Windmill too many people in the UK are too bone idle to work perhaps they should go Greek for a week, if you dont work you dont get.. UK has it too easy for the likes of contestants of the Jeremy Kyle show, generations never worked and happy to live off the state, or tax payers. And as for pensions, you only have to live in the UK to qualify for a full pension so whos to say you cannot retire early, or you have to work an extra 2-3 years to qualify for a full pension, we live in a benefit state where its too easy to shy from work because its not worth getting out of bed to collect the same money off the state, and like the GREEKS I too work very hard long hours and ALL year long. I think the programme brought to light things others never knew about.
Message posted by tully on 13 November 2011 at 2:23pm - IP Logged
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I think it doesn't matter where in the world you live, there will always be unscrupulous people.
In UK we are too soft I agree with Suffolk Steve.
As for pensions, you have to work for 30 years to claim the full pension, if you are a woman you will be allocated so many years for raising children in that 30 years.
If you have never worked my understanding is that you get a reduced pension.
Trouble is people with private pensions are now finding out that they won't get as much as anticipated, so are having to work longer.
Which means less jobs available, and so the vicous circle goes on.
It's just a shame that the Media are kicking Greece at the moment, still it will probably be Italy's turn next.
Message posted by Wynne on 13 November 2011 at 4:11pm - IP Logged
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Showing young people misbehaving in Kavos is hardly a new idea. They'll probably have to stand in line with all the British cameramen producing footage for Sky or Channel 4. They could probably save money by buying an off the shelf programme either about tourist behaviour or of Saturday night in a major UK city. There are a large number of programmes purportedly highlighting problems but actually being used as a form of entertainment. Yes there are a lot of problems in the UK and there are also problems of a different kind in Greece. These programme makers will look for the worst in any society.
Message posted by kathy3 on 13 November 2011 at 6:17pm - IP Logged
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Whatever posts are about on this forum I find people rubbishing the UK ...so for those that did not like the programme "Greek for a week" that is how many of us feel when we read the posts putting the UK down!! I am fed up with it. I am not saying the UK is perfect, but for goodness sake whenever there is a "debate" on here, people always say well the UK this or the UK that
I love my country and yes I am proud of who I am ...
It takes an awful lot for me to retaliate, because I am of the mind we all have opinions, but in this instance I feel I ought to speak out
To me the Greek people are lovely welcoming people, I have had so many beautiful holidays in Greece, in many different places, and I do feel for the way they are suffering now.
Not a lot of members reply to my posts anyway, no idea why.
But there I have said it now and I am not going to finish on a lighthearted quip, because this is something I feel strongly about.
Message posted by Wynne on 13 November 2011 at 7:02pm - IP Logged
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All societies have faults. A Greek friend of ours who recently spent time in the UK said how much he prefered the 'British lifestyle'. Now what was that song - 'The other man's grass is always greener'? There is always room for improvement. I would be quite happy to live in a Britain with Corfu's climate (but only in the summer as I prefer the cold weather to rain!)
Message posted by Graham T-A on 13 November 2011 at 9:18pm - IP Logged
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We have a house in the UK and also a house in Greece and if I had to give up one it would be no contest. The one in Greece would have to go. The corruption and beurocracy in Greece just sends me crazy sometimes!!
Message posted by julesx2 on 13 November 2011 at 10:12pm - IP Logged
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julesx2
I agree with you kathy3, too many people on here cant wait to jump in and rubbish the UK. Theres good and bad in each country and sadly the "poke" at the UK on here is always the bad bits. Yes sure the "Jeremy Kyle brigade" do exist fortunatley in the minority .I was in Tesco yesterday and happened to witness the most disgusting scene of two ladies with three small children under five, WELL what can I say the children were running riot for the entire duration on my weekly shop, chucking stuff on the ground, breaking open multipacks of food and eating and drinking items and throwing the rubbish on the floor. When they got to the tills all the items the children where still eating were chucked into a basket under the tills and not paid for..needless to say they wernt English!! All countrys have undesirables. One thing I do agree with though is our benefits system is rubbish, it should be for people to fall back on during hard times not for people to sit on backsides doing nothing.
Message posted by Lavinia on 14 November 2011 at 12:15am - IP Logged
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I agree too. Surely this forum is not a comparison site to compare life in the UK and life in Greece, it is mainly about life in Greece. After all, not all members are British? However, when someone is thinking of moving here from the UK and asks questions about education or health care, for example, it is hard for us not to compare the two cultures.
Message posted by kathy3 on 14 November 2011 at 8:31am - IP Logged
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Lavinia, I totally agree
(However, when someone is thinking of moving here from the UK and asks questions about education or health care, for example, it is hard for us not to compare the two cultures.)
Then it is only sensible to answer and compare, ...but as for the other comments always arising, it gets me mad.
Thank you for your replies Graham and Jules
Kathyx
Message posted by kathy3 on 14 November 2011 at 2:02pm - IP Logged
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And another point is this, yes the young people do misbehave in Kavos, but if they could not get all the cheap drink, they would not go there, so never mind videoing them, both sides must take the blame here. The Greeks for starting all of this in the first place, and the youngsters for not behaving responsibly.
Kavos is known for it, the Greek people run the bars so it is up to them to put an end to this, if they do not want it they do not need to put up with it. I have visited many Greek resorts, and there are a mixture of age groups, and everyone is happy ... but I remember Spain had somewhere like that, and in the end they got so fed up, they cleaned up the place and it is now a place to go to for everyone.
kathyxx
Message posted by DavidJ on 14 November 2011 at 5:55pm - IP Logged
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I wouldn't deny that a lot of Greeks work hard but you can't argue with the fact that tax evasion is the national sport. I spoke to a friend in Athens who is up in arms about the one-off wealth tax but freely admits that he hasn't paid any income tax in 15 years. And you can't blame the EU for letting Greece get away with it - Greeks have to take resposnsibility for their own actions and those of their government. There is no doubt that successive Greek goverenments have cooked the books (i.e. lied) to maintain their EU membership (claiming inflation of 3% when ite been nearer 14% by manipulating the figures for example.) And now its all come back to haunt them and they're blaming everyone else except themselves. Recommended Reading: the chapter on Greece in Boomerang - the Meltdown Tour by Michael Lewis.
Message posted by Graham T-A on 14 November 2011 at 9:58pm - IP Logged
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David, you are missing something here. The Greeks don't see that they are telling fibs. That's their government, not them, even though they encouraged the lies. They also don't see that they are getting money from Europe. The way they see it is that they are part of the EU and so its their money anyway (the way Greek families think about what their familys own) which is paying off their debts so they are being victimised for something they did not do. The Greek press are putting a slant on the present problem which is worse than the daily UK press could ever get away with which pleases the population as they still don't see that they have ever done anything wrong.
Message posted by kathy3 on 15 November 2011 at 8:18am - IP Logged
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On the last two posts. If they do not take some of the blame, how will they ever get out of the mess they are in? They have got to acknowledge the country is in a mess, it is a sorry state of affairs indeed I think
kathyx
Message posted by Graham T-A on 15 November 2011 at 10:43am - IP Logged
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I was up thee Kafenion a couple of nights ago and it's everyone elses fault but certainly not their own. I pointed out that while they claiming their winter money EKA from the state for being unemployed they were all in fact working on other jobs and not paying taxes. They could not see that this may be something to do with the problem.
Message posted by kathy3 on 15 November 2011 at 11:12am - IP Logged
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I have deliberately kept away from this topic but having now watched the documentary I feel that I am now in a position to offer my two leptasworth. I also base my views on ten years of living in Greece.
Firstly the programme itself was, in my opinion, reasonably factual. I saw nothing that I thought to be incorrect. The reporting was as mentioned in other replies typically 'tabloid' and sensationalist.
With the exception of the doctor and planning officer scenarios, nothing was shown that was illegal insofar as the individuals were concerned, as far as I recall.
The programme would have been improved by more explanation of why these situations have come about. There was only one reference to these reasons which was glossed over.
Lavinia, I fully understand your defence of the medical profession but I can assure you that it goes on.
I have personally experienced it. When coming to pay for the removal of some sea urchin spines from my granddaughter's foot, I was given three prices. The highest was if I was putting it through insurance; the next highest was if I wanted a receipt and the cheapest was if I paid cash without a receipt.
A recent consultation with a vet resulted in a bill for the consultation and prescription drugs. Only the cost of the drugs appeared on the receipt.
If I go back to the programme, the 'perks' that were on offer were legitimate. For example the classification of hairdressing as a hazardous occupation. That is not the fault of the recipient.
In the same way that MPs were accused in the UK of abusing the expenses system. Few were actually found to have been proven to have done anything illegal. Those few that were, have been dealt with.
On a personal note, when I was working, there were occasions that I was entitled to a subsistence allowance whether or not I spent the money in the first place, just so long as I met the criteria. (Eg away from my normal place of work for more than a specified time).
Morally, it may not be right but legally it was. Yes, before anyone queries it I claimed it every time!
Bob G
Message posted by Mrs D on 15 November 2011 at 5:54pm - IP Logged
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I would just like to add my own comments in relation this topic.
I, along with my husband purchased our wee house to renovate back in 2004. The cost of the work, which has been paid mainly in cash, has far outweighed what it would have cost for the same work to be done in the UK. If wages are so low and tax is not being paid (alledgedly), where has all this money gone? In the UK traditionally cash jobs are much cheaper to the customer but in Corfu, despite the fact that I paid for the majority of the work in cash, the price was still very expensive! Somebody, somewhere along the line, has done quite well out of our project.
Oh and by the way before anyone asks why I paid in cash, I generally wasn't given any choice.
Message posted by DavidJ on 15 November 2011 at 7:03pm - IP Logged
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Graham T- A I suspect you're right - the Greeks don't think they're telling fibs and they look at it as their money - and therein lies the problem- they're in total denial!
Message posted by DavidJ on 15 November 2011 at 7:08pm - IP Logged
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Mrs D - a fiend of mine (an architect) went on a business trip to Athens recently and stayed in a city centre hotel. A reasonably large well-established one. When he came to check out they demand cash and only cash - refusing payment by credit card. They told him to go to a cash machine and draw it out. He didn't have the time as he had to catch a flight and was told they would rather he left without paying than paid by credit card!
Message posted by Elliemay on 15 November 2011 at 7:17pm - IP Logged
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I hardly ever use cash in this country, always pay by either credit or debit card. It drives me mad having to have wads of cash when I'm in Corfu, even more so since I had my bag stolen form a villa we were staying in and it contained 700euro because I was due to pay someone!
Message posted by km on 15 November 2011 at 7:33pm - IP Logged
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Mrs D
When we had our bathroom changed in early 2008 we paid three times the price of what we have paid in the UK to fit the bathroom suite. And yes we paid in cash and no we didn't get a receipt - I dread to think what the answer would have been had we dared ask for one.
Relatives have had to give 'fakalakis' before operations, and this was not long ago but very recently. When I saw a private consultant here in the UK as soon as he knew that my husband was from Greece he 'jokingly' asked if we were going to offer him a 'fakalaki'!!!
Message posted by BruceAndMaria (Born again CTG member) on 18 November 2011 at 10:33am - IP Logged
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Channel 4 could have stayed in the UK and made that program and saved their selves money instead of jumping on the bandwagon of slating the Greek as the worlds biggest tax dodgers, judging by this report below we Brits could teach the Greeks a thing or two about fiddling the taxman.
The British media does a pretty good job of attacking bad behavior in this country. There have been a number of programmes about benefits cheats and tax dodgers. Is the same approach taken by the Greek media or is the emphasis on blaming others for the problems it now faces?
I have a great deal of sympathy for genuine hardworking Greek people who are suffering hardship but let's not pretend that there are not genuine issues that need to be addressed. Saying 'but look at the British' doesn't make the problem any better.
Message posted by BruceAndMaria (Born again CTG member) on 18 November 2011 at 11:24am - IP Logged
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I agree with you Wynne entirely that there are genuine issues that need addressing in Greece, but by the Greek government not by some poxy foreign TV channel who only made the program in the first place to boost their viewing figures.
All I'm saying is don't knock others when the same thing is happening in your own back yard.
Bruce
Message posted by Dave and Kerry on 18 November 2011 at 11:47am - IP Logged
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The UK has a larger budget deficit, it also has a larger problem re its lavish unsustainable and unnaffordable public sector
They could just have easily done a programme about the milions of British state workers who retire in their 50's on inflation proof pensions most can only dream of...
But they dont, awful programme I thought
Message posted by Wynne on 18 November 2011 at 1:34pm - IP Logged
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According to official EU figures Britain's deficit to GDP though high is third behind Ireland and Greece. To refer back to Kathy 3's comment, why all the anti-UK comments?
If we must make comparisons let's at least be accurate. The budget deficit only tells part of the story as it reflects annual borrowing. If you look at overall indebtedness then according to the figures quoted in a Telegraph article in April "the UK’s public debt as a proportion of GDP stands at 80pc. By comparison, Greece’s debts are 142.8pc of GDP, Ireland’s 96.2pc and Portugal’s 93pc. Even Germany has greater public borrowings than the UK, at 83.2pc of GDP"
Message posted by openside on 18 November 2011 at 1:41pm - IP Logged
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Because people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones
Plus the only reason the UK isnt in the same mess is because we have been printing the money to pay our debt interest and finance the deficit something Greece being part of the euro cant do
Message posted by Wynne on 18 November 2011 at 1:45pm - IP Logged
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Thats historic debt, the UK's by the way is rocketing and within 5 years we will have overtaken most of them as we are borrowing £100b+ per year, which adds 10% annually to our current total £1t national debt
This years figure of 80% will become 90% next year, 100% the year after and so on, the amount of money we are borrowing is staggering
Our budget deficit is 10% Greece is 9% in fact Italy which is portrayed as a financial basket case has a far lower budget deficit than the UK
Message posted by kathy3 on 18 November 2011 at 2:44pm - IP Logged
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Again, what started off as a thread about a programme on Greece has descended into knocking the UK.
If we are to "debate" the UK, and knock it, why not start a thread about it?
Greece has big problems, a lot of it their own making so why try and say the UK is just the same? This is a thread about a Greece problem I thought I agree with you Wynne
Message posted by Dave and Kerry on 18 November 2011 at 2:59pm - IP Logged
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They could just have easily done a programme about the milions of British state workers who retire in their 50's on inflation proof pensions most can only dream of...
So while many public sector workers accepted low wages knowing they had a good pension to fall back on, the private sector now whinge and whine and forget all about the bonuses and other perks and high wages they had in the past! Very convenient for certain people out there!
While it is possible the same happened in Greece there are still many people who should be paying their fair share of tax there and in the UK who are not doing so, and the richer you are the more chance you have of avoiding paying it.
Message posted by openside on 18 November 2011 at 3:04pm - IP Logged
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"so while many public sector workers accepted low wages knowing they had a good pension to fall back on, "
The average wage in the public sector is higher than the private sector, has been for donkey years.
They have longer holidays, much better job security and working conditions and retire earlier and on pensions people in the private sector can only dream of.
Not knocking them, its the system at fault but we cant afford 6 million public sector workers on those pay and conditions anymore or we'll end up like Greece
Message posted by Dave and Kerry on 19 November 2011 at 12:39am - IP Logged
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openside ... my other half works for the DWP and has a wonderful wage of around £13k per year!! Many many people dealing with private sector pensions earn a hell of a lot more and with less stress!!
Much better job security? is that so in todays climate! tell that to all those who have lost their jobs in the time that the condems have been in power!
Better pensions? Some will be on £3,000 per year not exactly Gold plated as the Daily Sheep Dip and the Scum would have many believe!
Message posted by Wynne on 19 November 2011 at 6:59pm - IP Logged
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Sorry openside,your analysis is wrong and your figures flawed. Even with the austerity measures the aim is to get the Greek figure down to 120 percent by 2020. It just doesn't work the way you describe it.
To set the facts straight Greece's budget deficit for 2010 was not 9 percent but 10.5 (it had targeted 8 percent but overshot. This year Greece has targeted 9 percent. It remains to be seen what the final figure will be though it will probably fall becaus e large amounts of debt will have been written off. The other important factors are the ability to 'service' your debt and growth. The problem for Greece (and Italy is that they have not been able to borrow at 'German' rates). In terms of growth the latest projections from Greece are that the economy will contract by 5.5 percent this year and 2.8 percent next year with unemployment rising to 17 percent (around twice the current UK rate). The UK situation is bad, but you cannot really compare it with Greece
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13194344
Message posted by Robbos on 21 December 2011 at 12:07pm - IP Logged
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Just watched it. Seems to be factual. It's all a matter of degrees. The orthopaedic surgeon pays his wife £70,000 a year to run his "business"-no other staff-Why? Tax avoidance but legal. I never pay tradesmen by cheque and never get a contract unless a huge job like an extension. Many hairdressers cut their "friends" hair for cash. Why?--Tax avoidance.
Only yesterday it is revealed that HMRC staff are going "soft" on big businesses, negotiating lower than proper tax revenues??? Dodgy or what??? All businesses maximise their expenses to avoid tax even here.
As I said, the morality is the same but the extent and the institutionalisation of corruption is different.
Message posted by Robbos on 21 December 2011 at 12:14pm - IP Logged
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Openside You have to compare like with like (ceteris paribus). A high proportion of Public employees are professionals like teachers, social workers, doctors, nurses, town planners, engineers and even lawyers so put the average salary up when compared to the top-heavy private sector.
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